Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:07 am

I have a suspicion that Leadership with a Henchman might be OP as is. You get such huge benefits from the very first click that I'm a bit skeptical that it needs any help on subsequent clicks - especially more benefits that you get without it even showing.

I'd like to clarify as well that Henchmen have fixed stats as Minions, not as their archetype's (so a Marksman Henchman has 6 range, not eight).

Jon, I assume that they can't exceed their archetype's cap - so a Slasher Henchman has zero range and not 6? Slasherpog would be OP with 6 range, I think.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Tofer » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:07 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:I'd like to clarify as well that Henchmen have fixed stats as Minions, not as their archetype's (so a Marksman Henchman has 6 range, not 8).


Apparently Range 6 is "not Cool" :lol:
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:56 pm

Hah hah hah! Stupid PHPBB. :D
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby DarkestThicket » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:42 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:I have a suspicion that Leadership with a Henchman might be OP as is. You get such huge benefits from the very first click that I'm a bit skeptical that it needs any help on subsequent clicks - especially more benefits that you get without it even showing.

I'd like to clarify as well that Henchmen have fixed stats as Minions, not as their archetype's (so a Marksman Henchman has 6 range, not eight).

Jon, I assume that they can't exceed their archetype's cap - so a Slasher Henchman has zero range and not 6? Slasherpog would be OP with 6 range, I think.


You are correct sir! Me thinks Johnny Hotfists will become a little less of a threat as a result.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby LionKingXXVII » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:14 pm

I would also like to chime in that perhaps maybe minions should have been EXCLUIVE to Leader archetypes. I don't think EVERYONE should have one. I know I would have taken leadership by now if I was doing the MIN-MAX thing. As it gives you an EXTRA attack as well as an EXTRA target for your side. Just imagine the power one side would have over the other if say ALL the heroes had minions (+6 extra guys) That means that on alternating turns we are not only NOT clearing but we are actually attacking with our "POG" as it were, that i potentially A LOT more damage output and support that our counterparts who do not have "leadership" and minions. I think that leadership in and of itself is already a pretty good power ESPECIALLY with the CAPES! Campaign rules that allow for "SPECIAL" extra actions even after you have acted, upon roll a 6 that is. :D :D :D


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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:24 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Leo. I think if something isn't done about Henchmen, we'll be seeing a lot more of them, they're so good it's almost idiotic not to buy one. To be honest, Jon Snow had fantasizing about playing a Leader back when we were first discussing Snowman Heroclix, so it's not surprising that it's an awesome archetype with it's own house rules. :D

We priced Leadership very cheap based on Heroclix rules, but the house-ruled version is crazy awesome, there's nothing for 1/2/3 that is remotely as good. (Personally, I think purchasing minions should be separate from purchasing Leadership anyway since it's a "full dial" benefit for the purchase of a single click.)
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby radone » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:I'm inclined to agree with Leo. I think if something isn't done about Henchmen, we'll be seeing a lot more of them, they're so good it's almost idiotic not to buy one. To be honest, Jon Snow had fantasizing about playing a Leader back when we were first discussing Snowman Heroclix, so it's not surprising that it's an awesome archetype with it's own house rules. :D

We priced Leadership very cheap based on Heroclix rules, but the house-ruled version is crazy awesome, there's nothing for 1/2/3 that is remotely as good. (Personally, I think purchasing minions should be separate from purchasing Leadership anyway since it's a "full dial" benefit for the purchase of a single click.)

I would tend to agree weith this. I can definitely see abuse with the way side-kicks are. I think that James should be able to keep his Minion and from now on the Minions should be purchased separately from leadership. Also all Minions should be pogs.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:09 pm

radone wrote:Also all Minions should be pogs.

You mean you feel that all Henchman should be single-click? Nerfs make players sad. :)

Maybe Henchman should be its own archetype so it can be balanced separately?
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby LionKingXXVII » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:19 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
radone wrote:Also all Minions should be pogs.

You mean you feel that all Henchman should be single-click? Nerfs make players sad. :)

Maybe Henchman should be its own archetype so it can be balanced separately?

I totally feel that it is fine for "LEADERS" to have henchmen that are NOT pogs...it's part of their schtick as an archetype. But I do feel that all the other archetypes should perhaps be considered to have "POGS" as this will at least slightly nerf players who are not Leaders and have a minion anyways. Just a thought...or we could just allow ourselves to continue a is...I know I still won't get leadership as it does not fit my character design. ;)

Theo is right about NERFing players...NO ONE likes it. However, as we all knew this was a work it progress maybe everyone will be a little bit more forgiving and allow for this to be thuroughly playtested and NERFed as we go. That way we can develop a system that we can all use in the future as another Campaign alternative. I personally would be very interested in playing another one of these CAPES! Campaigns. :D :D :D
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Tofer » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:21 pm

LionKingXXVII wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
radone wrote:Also all Minions should be pogs.

You mean you feel that all Henchman should be single-click? Nerfs make players sad. :)

Maybe Henchman should be its own archetype so it can be balanced separately?

I totally feel that it is fine for "LEADERS" to have henchmen that are NOT pogs...it's part of their schtick as an archetype. But I do feel that all the other archetypes should perhaps be considered to have "POGS" as this will at least slightly nerf players who are not Leaders and have a minion anyways. Just a thought...or we could just allow ourselves to continue a is...I know I still won't get leadership as it does not fit my character design. ;)

Theo is right about NERFing players...NO ONE likes it. However, as we all knew this was a work it progress maybe everyone will be a little bit more forgiving and allow for this to be thuroughly playtested and NERFed as we go. That way we can develop a system that we can all use in the future as another Campaign alternative. I personally would be very interested in playing another one of these CAPES! Campaigns. :D :D :D


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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby radone » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:07 pm

It is true that people don't like nerfs but we can always have a going forward type change. It shouldn't make too much of a problem since we only have 3 minions.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby switch21 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:56 pm

And I have found that there is totally encouragement on Jon's part to re-shape the characters to reflect the changes coming down the pike... a little retcon here and there can keep a character from becoming irrelevant to the campaign (and keep it from becoming un-fun to play).

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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Joebarnes » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:26 pm

Mysterious Stranger wrote:I have a suspicion that Leadership with a Henchman might be OP as is. You get such huge benefits from the very first click that I'm a bit skeptical that it needs any help on subsequent clicks - especially more benefits that you get without it even showing.

I'd like to clarify as well that Henchmen have fixed stats as Minions, not as their archetype's (so a Marksman Henchman has 6 range, not eight).


Shit. My bad. I read the rules on creating a henchman for my Leader/Mastermind, and I missed the 6 range (giving Johnny a range of 8 was my mistake...although Jon approved the character, so maybe I'll blame him instead :P :P ). I'll be adjusting his range to 6 for next campaign.
The only reason I opted for the Leader/Mastermind archetype was so I could get a henchman with clicks. A Bystander just wouldn't have been cool enough for me! But my understanding is that if you have purchased Leadership (and you're NOT of the Leader/Mastermind archetype) your henchman MUST be a BYSTANDER TOKEN. This is correct, isn't it? Are there other guys running around with Heanchmen with 2+ clicks??
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby undead1 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:41 pm

So, are the minion via leadership rules staying the same???

Who else actually has a minion (other than Ken and Ryan)?

The heroes are just worried that the carrots can actually kick some @$$.

Hope the rules dont change too much. Kinda getting attached to my minion idea.

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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby depster » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:48 pm

So let me get this straight...as a Martial Artist, Master Macho could get leadership and thus a henchman who could be a marksman (pog or 3 click figure?) at stat 6/8/15/2 R6A1...and you buy powers for them and increase their stats accordingly? Is the henchman (Martial Artist, Marksman or Slasher) still using their architypes max stats or the henchman stats...

Slasher Stat Cap: 9/12/16/3 R0A1 Henchman starting stat 6/8/15/2 R6A1
Martial Artist Stat Cap: 10/9/17/2 R4A2 vs Henchman stat

I'm a little confused.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Mysterious Stranger » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:34 pm

undead1 wrote:So, are the minion via leadership rules staying the same???

That appears to be the subject of debate. :)

d'epster wrote:So let me get this straight...


Henchmen - Anyone purchasing Leadership for the first time gains a bystander token to use as part of their character with the following stats: 6/8/15/2. Range and stat caps are as per their Archetype (see "Powers" below).
Powers - You may buy up to two powers for each henchman using your Build Points. Each Henchman is either a Slasher (Range 0), Martial Artist (Range 4/), or Marksman (Range 6/), and power costs are as per those archetypes.
Leader/Mastermind - Your first Henchman starts with THREE clicks instead of one (each with the same stats as above). Additionally, you may sacrifice a click of life to give your minion an extra click. This Henchman can never have more clicks of life than you.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby depster » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:55 pm

so if you have a Martial Artist architype to begin with...does your henchman have to be a Martial Artist too? or can you make it a Marksman?
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Joebarnes » Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:33 am

I don't know why other Capes even need/want Henchman...your characters are tough enough to actually put up a fight! As a Leader/Mastermind archetype, my character is not combat-oriented, thus the need for a henchman. Personally, I think the Leadership rules should be adjusted to avoid everyone running around with powered-up Bystanders.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby Tofer » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:11 am

For rule clarity, I suggest we separate the minions into two categories:

Sidekick
(Leadership power)
Anyone purchasing Leadership for the first time gains a bystander token to use as part of their character with the following stats: 6/8/15/2. Range and stat caps are as per their Archetype (see "Powers" below). A Sidekick may not gain additional clicks of life.
Powers - You may buy up to two powers for each Sidekick using your Build Points. Each Sidekick is either a Slasher (Range 0), Martial Artist (Range 4/), or Marksman (Range 6/), and power costs are as per those archetypes.

Henchman
(Leader/Mastermind Archetype)
Your Henchman starts with THREE clicks instead of one (each with the same stats and subject to rules as above). Additionally, you may sacrifice a click of life to give your Henchman an extra click. This Henchman can never have more clicks of life than you.
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Re: Rules clarification: Leadership and Minions

Postby DarkestThicket » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:54 am

Mysterious Stranger wrote:I'm inclined to agree with Leo. I think if something isn't done about Henchmen, we'll be seeing a lot more of them, they're so good it's almost idiotic not to buy one. To be honest, Jon Snow had fantasizing about playing a Leader back when we were first discussing Snowman Heroclix, so it's not surprising that it's an awesome archetype with it's own house rules. :D

We priced Leadership very cheap based on Heroclix rules, but the house-ruled version is crazy awesome, there's nothing for 1/2/3 that is remotely as good. (Personally, I think purchasing minions should be separate from purchasing Leadership anyway since it's a "full dial" benefit for the purchase of a single click.)


It's true I also had some jonesing for the Shapeshifters and wanted to do something similar to a crossroads character where you could change and flip your card and have different powers. Theo convinced me it would be too complicated.

If there is a retcon on the leadership pog the people that have purchased it up to this point will be keeping it (please don't take this as a "holy crap it might be going away I'ma get it" and try to keep it thematic.
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