Team Rosters - Disscussion

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Black Lanterns

Postby switch21 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:40 pm

THe Black Lanterns:

Sue Dibny (bystander)
Firestorm (Ronnie Raymond)
Cap. Boomerang (Digger Harkness)
Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
Phantom Girl
Human Bomb
Psycho Pirate
The Question (Dude)
Elongated Man
Dr. Light (Arthur)
Martian Manhunter
Deadman
Terra
Jade
Aquaman (Arthur Curry)
Jonathan Kent
Hawk
Dove
Solomon Grundy
Alex Luthor
Katma Tui
Ch'p
Tomar Re
Abin Sir
The Top
E-2 Superman
The Black Hand

Just a thought, but since this is such a large team and just for the shear comic accuracy pov. I think that there should be no progression for any figure on this team. You can start at any one level and then upgrade them like a unique fig.

The reason for this is that these characters are dead. They are brought out of a grave and that is their power level. For example, I choose Vet Blue Beetle from Hypertime. That is it. No progressing to the Crisis version. You pay the cost for upgrades like he is a unique now.

This would mean you'd have to figure out your enitre team build before hand so you can fit on all the characters you want.

Also Black Hand has to be your leader.


That's a crazy list of characters, many of whom are already uniques anyhow....

What do other campaigners think about the no-progression idea? I agree with Chad that from what we know so far, it seems accurate. Also, what about the TA relating to what we've seen so far with the .... spoiler.... and have it involve steal energy and/or regen?

For example, characters possessing the Black Lantern Team Ability may activate steal energy upon both ranged and close combat attacks and heal a number of clicks equal to their unmodified damage. Black Lanterns may also use regeneration as a free action once per turn (Auto Regen).

That sounds like fun, except if you look at the list, the number of figs with steal energy and regen aren't many....

Ideas for variations?

How about: When a character possessing the Black Lantern Team Ability KO's an opposing figure, each team member within six (8? 10?) squares immediately heals one click. The healing effect ignores line of fire and terrain.

OR how about an In Contact With Oracle variation?
Characters possessing the Black Lantern Team Ability may choose to contact Black Hand; Black Hand may not contact himself. If Black Hand is on your force, you may remove him from the battlefield at the beginning of the game and place him on his card. At the beginning of any of your turns, you may assign a power action to any Black Lantern with zero or one action token and turn Black Hand's dial to any click. The Black Lantern given the action may use any power showing on Black Hand's dial until any Black Lantern with zero or one action token is given a power action to turn Black Hand's dial. If your last Black Lantern is KO'd while Black Hand is on his card, he appears on the board in place of the KO'd character (with the dial as it was when he was on his card).


If it's not too powerful, perhaps it could be the ICWBH version if he's on the force and the heal-a-click-after-KO version when he's not (non-optional - if Black Hand is on the force, it must be option 1).

Thoughts?
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Atomic Fire » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:37 am

switch21 wrote:
That sounds like fun, except if you look at the list, the number of figs with steal energy and regen aren't many....

Ideas for variations?

How about: When a character possessing the Black Lantern Team Ability KO's an opposing figure, each team member within six (8? 10?) squares immediately heals one click. The healing effect ignores line of fire and terrain.



Thoughts?


I like this one except I'd limit the range to 4 (the Black Lanterns seem to pull their victims hearts out to power up, just what we've seen so far) and you'd have to have line of fire to the victim. Otherwise you could have your entire team on the other side of a wall and kill a pog that would heal everyone.

Or you could just do Suicide Squad but with opposing figures.

Again, just throwing out there.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Atomic Fire » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:56 am

Also there are a couple of other Lanterns I didn't mention just because I didn't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't read issue 1.

I'll add them when issue 2 comes out.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby number6 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:49 pm

I think that there should be no progression for any figure on this team. You can start at any one level and then upgrade them like a unique fig.
I'm sure most ppl would be fine with it as a team concept/theme idea, although it does remove a major element of a Campaign - Progression. I can't imagine things like WoW or D&D would be as fun or as compelling for ppl if there was no 'levelling up'.
In my case it would dissuade me from playing the team, as I really like upgrading. It's be a team I'd build for a Constructed match, which does not have progression.

Also Black Hand has to be your leader.
I would be more tempted to give players a carrot for making Black Hand the team leader (something thematic). Leaders used to be set in stone (at times), but ppl didn't want that necessarily. They wanted the option for themselves.

As for a TA, Suicide Squad but with an opposing figure being KOed seems like the most straight forward solution. There has been some complaints about TA's being too complex. So trying to relate them to existing TA's would be the most appropriate methodology imho.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby rancidtwinkie » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:13 pm

I would stick with standard progressions for figures, it is just more fun as D mentioned (and a little less complicated).

As for the ATA, you could go with the Frightful Four wording:

"At the beginning of each match, choose an opposing Team Symbol. When an opposing figure with the chosen Team
Ability is KO’d, each friendly member of your team with the Frightful Four Team Symbol and of lower point value than
the KO’d figure heals one click of damage."

This eliminates the 'kill a pog to heal the team' issue.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Answerman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:48 pm

The problem with creating a team based off one issue is the amount of assumption being made.
Its been stated in interviews that Black Hand isn't the main force driving the Black Lanterns, and from what we see already Scar (the evil Zombie style GUardian that theres no clix fig for) is more in control than Black Hand is.

For that matter we aren't sure what extra abilities they grant the wielder, as Daerave stated in another thread they did indeed appear to make Sue and Ralph Digby tougher than they were in life.
Of course that could also just be chalked up to the element of surprise and potentially something that Black Hand was doing.
And then at the same time the battle between the Black Lantern Martian Manhunter and the Flash (Barry) and GL (Hal) showed J'Onn with no capabilities but his own and a new undead braggy pants ego!

The series is only on issue 1 of 8, give it time before coming up with any definitive conclusions.

Who knows? Maybe one of these revived ubermensh that possessed great charisma in life will take over the Black Lantern Corps?

Hell if that Skull belongs to the Batman I think it does things are gonna get funky when that reveal occurs!
And I'm freaked for the undead return of the Original Superman!

For TA I really like the idea of a Wildcards ability that can take advantage of the mix-match of TA's.
So if you have no TA you've got a wide range and if you do have one you could pay a bit more to have some increased flexibility.

I certainly don't agree that Progression is needed for this team.
In fact its completely against the concept and if you don't want to play the team because there is no progression then that because you have no affinity for the actual team.
The idea that teams should be built for anyone before they're built for those that have an affinity for the actual teams is IMO kinda ass backwards.

Theres plenty of teams to play, if the idea of playing a team thats been designed to be uber accurate doesn't appeal to you, move on to something else.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby switch21 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:04 pm

number6 wrote:I think that there should be no progression for any figure on this team. You can start at any one level and then upgrade them like a unique fig.
Also Black Hand has to be your leader.
I would be more tempted to give players a carrot for making Black Hand the team leader (something thematic). Leaders used to be set in stone (at times), but ppl didn't want that necessarily. They wanted the option for themselves.

As for a TA, Suicide Squad but with an opposing figure being KOed seems like the most straight forward solution. There has been some complaints about TA's being too complex. So trying to relate them to existing TA's would be the most appropriate methodology imho.


I think that the Black Hand as Leader could be awesome if he has the Oracle ability I suggested... that would be super sweet, in that it can allow the Black Lanterns some steal energy and regen, which most of them lack in their original forms, and this would be uber-thematic. Maybe it's a team feat that could be added?

The TA mirroring the Suicide Squad (but opposing KO) makes sense to me, but I really don't think it should be limited by point values, etc as Evan suggests. Suicide Squad has no such limitations and the "Black Lanterns" TA would be far more difficult to position than using the pushed pog used by SS members. I realize that the limitation of your own team dying to activate the TA is greater than that of opposing KOs (which are in line with goals from the outset). I am also a bit leery of adjacency being required (hence the range, but only one click of healing).
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby switch21 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:07 pm

BTW, if Manny is okay with whatever we can work out for this, I TOTALLY want to play this team. :D :) :( :o :shock: 8) :lol: :twisted:
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby DaeRave » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:12 pm

Agreed, theres a million teams that are already based on progression, Black Lanterns dont need to be.

Like we're saying, its too early to tell what their capabilities are. But I think something like a blanket Lazarus Pit effect might be good. Like I said in another thread, give them all Flight and Toughness, maybe Indomitable. Flight because every Lantern ring gives flight, like the Legion, and Toughness and Indomitable are two powers commonly associate with Zombies.

Plus, none of those powers would really break anyone or make them too terribly overpowered.

But thats just my opinion. We havent seen them in the comics long enough to judge if the other recomended TA's are accurate.
The campaign doesnt start until September, theres a poo load of comics that come out between now and then that will give us a more accurate idea of their capabilities then we currently have.



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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby DaeRave » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:24 pm

As an aside, I think Brents abilities are pretty overpowered, especially considering the prospect of E2 Superman with any kind of Regen ability.
lol if you actually managed to put him down, you deserve to have him STAY down.
if you do the 'death heals' TA, then the range should be small, 6 at the most. 10 spaces is outrageous.


actually, the ICWBH ability isnt terrible. Being able to use one of the powers on his dial is kinda neat and probably makes sense.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Answerman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:33 pm

I don't think we can state the Rings grant Flight and toughness.
Whats your example?
Sue and Ralph were not flying from what I recall.
Martian Manhunter could already fly.
So really theres nothing to go on thus far.

EDIT for re-reading the scene in question: We also haven't seen much of any of the Black Lanterns in any sort of life energy drain other than the one example.
And what ever effect it had wasn't really shown as much.
Thats to say that the two deaths resulted in "Power Levels .01" , "Power Levels .02" whoch to me sounds like more of a story element than any signifier of them growing more powerful in a signifigant manner.
In fact those that were victims to the "steal energy" style attack look like they're probably now Black Lanterns.
I agree it sounds thematic, but so far its not really.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby DaeRave » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:38 pm

My assumption for them getting flight isnt based on any actual known fact, just that every other Lantern color gets flight. And the rings themselves fly. It seems like a safe assumption.
And not that it grants toughness, just that most zombies or zombie-like-beings seem a bit more capable of shrugging off damage/pain then most people.
Its to represent them being dead instead of any actual shields or anything that the GL's or Sinestro Corps shields utilize.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Answerman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:47 pm

Still, considering that we haven't seen it yet its still an assumption thats not proven at all.

If we see it in any issue I'd be fine with it but so far the only real ability I could suggest as definitive is some sort of EW as (SPOILER ALERT FR BLACKEST NIGHT #1) Ralph ripping open Carters chest isn't something he could normally have done.

Again we're only on issue 1 of the series.
Give it time to show us whats really up before making decisions as we're seen next to nothing thus far.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby DaeRave » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:53 pm

Still, considering that we haven't seen it yet its still an assumption thats not proven at all.
Correctamundo.

Either way, my Infinity Watch team will put them in their place, and I'm callin them out too. if the GL corps cant keep these cosmic baddies down, then Drax will.

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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Atomic Fire » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:05 pm

OK, back to basics.

I don't agree with giving any team additional powers, other than the bonuses of a team ability. And considering who you can draft and who you'll be able to draft later, this team is full of really good clix.

I agree with Damon on figure progression, however, thematically for this team, no progression makes sense. For any other team, even Marvel Zombies, cause they do have some multiple figures, progression is what makes it fun.

So, the overall discussion should be what TA would / could /should the Black Lanterns have?

Choices so far:

Frightful four
"At the beginning of each match, choose an opposing Team Symbol. When an opposing figure with the chosen Team
Ability is KO’d, each friendly member of your team with the Frightful Four Team Symbol and of lower point value than
the KO’d figure heals one click of damage."

In Contact With the Black Hand
Characters possessing the Black Lantern Team Ability may choose to contact Black Hand; Black Hand may not contact himself. If Black Hand is on your force, you may remove him from the battlefield at the beginning of the game and place him on his card. At the beginning of any of your turns, you may assign a power action to any Black Lantern with zero or one action token and turn Black Hand's dial to any click. The Black Lantern given the action may use any power showing on Black Hand's dial until any Black Lantern with zero or one action token is given a power action to turn Black Hand's dial. If your last Black Lantern is KO'd while Black Hand is on his card, he appears on the board in place of the KO'd character (with the dial as it was when he was on his card).

Suicide Squad (opposing)

When a an opposing figure adjacent to a Black Lantern team member is KO'd, roll one D6 and subtract 2 from the result, minimum result 1. The team member is healed of damage equal to the result. If the team member is KO'd by the resolution of the same action that KO'd the adjacent opposing figure, this team ability can't be used.

MY own Black Lantern Ability:

When this character makes a successful close combat or ranged attacking causing a KO to an oppossing character, heal the attacking character of 1 damage.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby number6 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:20 pm

The last 2 TA's Chad listed resonate with me.
Although I've always been into TAs that denote positioning and 'team'. So a Suicide copy (of sorts) is dynamic in that you have to engage in adjacency and timing and gaming strategy to get the most out of the TA. Makes it interesting, and I'll leave theme up to ppl who claim to be in the know.
The TA where just KOing provides the figure with 1 click of healing is a TA that I categorize as Individual. It works with the figure, regardless of if any other team mates are around.
Both variations probably find preference in different people, but I always feel the word Team in Team Ability should be applicable ;)

There is something else to consider, which is when a TA is created in this manner there is usually a Symbol 'Keyed' (for lack of a better word) to the new TA.
If one wants to go theme, or maybe just fair and balanced then the Black Lanterns probably shouldn't get full use of the GL TA. So Key their new TA to the GL Team Symbol, that way you clearly define your villain and hero variations as different.
E.G. Figures with the GL Team Symbol automatically gain the Black Lantern team ability.... or however Evan has worded it... if he is still stewarding the rules (50 ft pole territory for me).

A team without progression of any sort is kinda like having a team option with "This team ignores all scenarios".
A Campaign without scenarios, probably wouldn't be much of one. You could do it, and call it a Campaign, but somehow I think it would become another animal regardless of what you choose to call it. If theme supercedes content and game mechanics then it's probably heading into left field. My opinion of course... my opinion.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Answerman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:12 pm

number6 wrote:A team without progression of any sort is kinda like having a team option with "This team ignores all scenarios".
A Campaign without scenarios, probably wouldn't be much of one. You could do it, and call it a Campaign, but somehow I think it would become another animal regardless of what you choose to call it. If theme supercedes content and game mechanics then it's probably heading into left field. My opinion of course... my opinion.


As you might expect I completely disagree.
The simple reality is that I enjoy playing teams that are as much like the actual teams as possible.
Sure I enjoy the progression, but feat cards as just as much an element of progression in my eyes in so much as I view clix figs as RPG like and anything a fig gets to add is progression to me.

But to directly retort to the statement of no progression as akin to "This team ignores all scenarios" that seems to just be a close minded view of an undetermined reality.
They certainly would only be that way if that was some kind of crazy decision made regarding how they work, but I would just suggest that if a scenario turns up where the dynamics of progression is involved thats when the no-progression concept would be put aside to accommodate the team.

You know looking at the apparent theme of the series Darkest Night I think that the idea of being able to recruit any player thats been Killed by the team would be a very fun way to play the team, and maybe even a potential function of the team symbol.
Because again even though the 2 people killed so far by Black Lanterns appeared to (in a very small manner. A .01 power increase? Puny.) neither of the victims was normal at all.
Both victims are known for re-incarnation and that could be the only reason for a power increase. Which is to say it might not work on anyone else and only waiting for more to be revealed of the nature of the Balck Lanterns will really give us a full picture IMO.

I also think that the idea of having different styles of teams that function in different ways is the best way to accommodate a group of very different people.

And that with that notion in mind the person that wants to play said team (in this case Brent) and the judge in question should be the ones to determine ultimately how the team works.
I'll as always be off on the said stating whats happened and what would be the most accurate IMO, but that doesn't mean I think my notions should be implemented its just where my passions regarding the game lie.

And the last thing I want to gun for is not letting someone play what they want, especially if its accurate.

Anyways I'm not opposed to the TA's suggested or character progression, but think that more time to see whats really going on with these characters and an open mind is what will make this team workable and fun.
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby DaeRave » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:36 pm

I'm with Hartley 100% on this one, but I've got one thing I want to clear up...


.. when you all speak of character 'progression', do you mean the whole REV LE U, starting with the smallest and working your way up... thats what your talking about, right, Character Levels?

The one thing that I've been curious about that no ones brought up yet, is character availability. Thats a big list of characters to choose from, that would probably end up being one of the largest to choose from. Whos available at first?
Would it still get broken up into Team Levels? Would we still be unlocking A B C and whatnot, and if so, how would we decide who gets put into what catagories?

We probably wont be able to do it based on the events of Blackest Night, who comes out, because we havent seen what order theyre coming out in yet as its still happening.
But we could do it in order of death, one of you Wiki afficinados could certainly spend an afternoon figuring out who died when (sounds like fun!!!!!.......)
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby switch21 » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:03 pm

This is fun :D

The BIG question I have is "how can I get a Warskrull on this team?" :shock: :oops: :lol:
(that should really be my ongoing campaign theme)

RE: progression - we actually have no idea whether these characters progress as they move forward in the storyline. We'll find out, but really, there is a very healthy portion of the list that are unique figs anyway, so progression is a moot point for them. This may be a discussion that does not require too much finagling in the end.

RE: TA - I love the ICWBH idea, but it's not a good TA. Maybe a team feat IF, and only if, Black Hand is the leader of the team.....

I think the Suicide Squad copy is REALLY powerful. I don't think rolling dice to heal figs when you KO an opponent is going to be fair (speaking as a judge). Too much healing going on. If a healing/regen power is a part of the TA, I believe it needs to be limited to one click and shared, cause I don't think it should be limited to one fig (power levels go up as a team - not just the attacker, at least that's how it seemed to me).

RE: Blackest Night - we should be super happy to have something fun like this to read! I've been enjoying this latest run of GL stuff for years now and it's still good... I'm wondering how this can all end, but I look forward to reading every issue! And look at the stimulating discussion we can have about it 8)
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Re: Black Lanterns

Postby Answerman » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:09 pm

The more its discussed the more IO think the best TA is just the ability to recruit those that are KO'd be the Black Lanterns.
As Daerave pointed out (which I meant to so thanks for that) the availability list is HUGE, and as Brent pointed out a Great many of these figs are on-shots anyways.

I'd think that one of the best ways to limit the team ultimately would be to make it more of a big deal which fig you choose as from that point on you'd be stuck with it.
And the balancer for that would be the giant list of availability, add the suggestion I made for a TA being you can recruit from those KO'd and I'd think that would be a fun team to play.
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